On criticism (constructive, literary and otherwise)

[tarigwaemir]

Sherman Fairchild, on the Feast of Ste. Rose of Lima

I've been reading through posts on the discussion on criticism going around LJ and wanted to ramble about it myself. Not that I actually have anything new or concrete to say. Of course, I've never written anything long enough to be subject to the type of analysis that rageprufrock experienced. Nor have I ever bothered to ask for a beta reader--except for that one time when tryogeru and I were attempting to write a fic together, and she ended up beta-ing rather than writing her part. (I still have that fic sitting unfinished on my computer.) Although if I ever do attempt a fic of significant length, I think I would ask for a beta simply because the one and only multichapter fic I ever wrote causes me physical pain whenever I look at it, and I wish someone had told me when I was writing it how ridiculous it sounded.

I think concrit is always easier to swallow if it comes from someone you know and respect. Critical comments from people I don't know on FF.net usually irritate me. But it's surprisingly pleasant to receive suggestions and feedback from friends on LJ; they're usually very perceptive in picking out the weaknesses in my writing. It gives you a pleasant glow to be taken seriously by such people. I remember I always had a curious double standard in English class (oh, those peer editing sessions): I got rather annoyed at comments from people who (to be brutally honest) were bad writers themselves, but I ended up respecting people who knew how to give thoughtful criticism and took their writing more seriously as a result. Actually the whole reason why I never really felt all that much affection for my expository writing preceptor was her lack of comments on my writing. (What, I'm not worth the effort?! We pay ungodly sums of money to attend this uni and take your course! Expository writing being required of all freshmen.) I am such an egotist.

Of course, feedback on essay writing is a completely different issue than the sort of literary criticism that is the actual topic of discussion. The problem with litcrit for fanfiction (at least, what I've seen of it so far) is that it all revolves around fundamentally different interpretations of character and series, and while one can argue from whatever canon material one possesses, in the end, no one's going to convince anyone else if they started off with such a disagreement in perspective. Of course, I have a rather utilitarian approach to debate in the first place. That whole "debate for the sake of debate" doesn't appeal to me. Debate to persuade, debate to learn Socratic-style, debate to inform, debate to let opinion be known to the world at large...but debate in order to debate? I know many people do enjoy that, but I get tired of the circumlocutions. After a certain point, everyone starts to talk at rather than to one another. (Exactly why I dread having to take Moral Reasoning.)

I also think that litcrit for fanfiction isn't at all analogous to litcrit for actual published works because the substance of the debate is different. Fanfiction litcrit occurs in reference to a separate source material created by a different author, while criticism for established literature remains within that author's playing field, so to speak. Okay, that's not entirely true, but nonetheless, I think the essence of the point is valid...

In short, I don't really know what I'm talking about. ::shuts up::

Yours &c.

Post-script: Oops, I forgot to provide links for those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about. issen4 has links up to several posts here. I also forgot to add that most of what I was saying above w/r/t debate needing purpose was meant in support of koimistress' point that the author should be allowed to join the discussion. Because without the author's input, the exercise seems largely pointless to me. In a sense, litcrit of fanfiction is really a discussion of the original material itself where the work of fanfiction is a form of commentary and the resulting criticism a response to that statement of opinion. Except the opinion is being stated in fictional rather than expository form. Hence, just as someone who posts an essay about a character or series on LJ should have free rein to reply to the comments on her post, the author should be equally allowed to respond to the reactions to her position. (And isn't it odd that we automatically assume the feminine pronoun for everything that refers to fandom? At least I do. O_O)

Comments

[rhoe.livejournal.com]

Er... I am an ignoramus but what's this "discussion on criticism going around LJ" about? O_o;;;

[troisroyaumes]

Oh, oops! Sorry, I forgot to include links. issen4 has most of the pertinent links here.

[matrixrefugee.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with you on concrit: I feel the same way about getting concrit from total strangers via ff.n, versus comments on my LJ from people I know and whose opinions I value. ...And there's been times when people tried giving me concrit, who turned out to be not that good a writer themselves.

The funniest incident involved a fifteen year old kid who gave me these really wierd comments on an "Animatrix: Detective Story" fic I wrote. He told me I needed to add more adjectives to a tense, scary action scene, when I *knew* if I did that, I'd slow the scene down when it needed to speed up. *Then* he got on my case for having one character use a 5th century Visigothic-style sword, because in his words "Katanas are cooler". I'm still not sure what to make of that, but I ignored it and went on with my story.

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, I think there ought to be some sort of "Concrit Contract":

1. The critic is free to tell the writer exactly what they think, no-holds-barred, as long as s/he is polite about it.
2. The writer is free to ignore what the critic says, as long as s/he at least pretends to accept it gracefully.

And oh boy, the katana comment wins the prize for most random nitpick ever...>_<;;

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Mmm, I think the thing about that comm is that some of the posts about it give a misleading impression. The purpose thecuttingboard, according to the owner, is not litcrit at all but simply discussion on various levels. So, rightly or wrongly, litcrit is allowed but not considered to be the main purpose.

As for litcrit without the author, I think people are responding to the death of the author thesis. But in some ways, couldn't you say that original fiction can also be looked at as an essay? On human nature or history or whatever the form of the book? Or perhaps it is analoguous to the way people feel it's 'cheating' for the author to introduce anything outside of the text. I recall how several people in the HP fandom were very put out by the interview answers that JKR gave, and felt that she should also agree with them the author was dead and keep silent. Which I personally don't agree with. I agree with Koimistress that the author has the same right anyone else does, which is to talk about it.

[troisroyaumes]

Oh, I didn't actually look through the rest of the comm, just some of the comments discussing Pru's fic.

I agree, original fic is itself a commentary as well on whatever the author thinks about life, the universe, everything. Personally I think it's actually quite interesting to look at authorial intent. (The question of whether authorial intent is necessarily superior to reader interpretation is a different matter.) I guess what I meant was that I can find a point in discussing original fiction without an author's input because you are by necessity starting off with not much more than what the author gave you. But with fanfiction, you don't start with the text, you start with the relationship of that text to canon. Fanfiction is, for the most part, specifically about a certain series rather than more generally about human nature/society/meaning of life. (Not that it can't be about the latter. But it seems that the point of a fanfic is usually about the original series.) Most of the discussion I saw on Pru's fic was about whether or not the commenters agreed with her interpretation of a preexisting character, which I considered to be largely pointless debate. I mean, if they felt the author's character development needed improvement, then the author should definitely be involved in the discussion. If they are just discussing it for the sake of discussing it, then...I really don't get why they're bothering to do it at such great length. ^_^;;

Basically I think everyone has the right to discuss whatever they want; I just don't always understand their motivations for it. ^_^

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Mmm, but while it may require previous knowledge of the canon, does that necessarily mean that the author's input is required? A historical novel might be quite incomprehensible to the reader who knows nothing of the period, but I don't think we'd say in that situation we'd need to have more authorial input than otherwise. It is a commentary, but the commentary should stand as independent of the author as any other work of fiction. (I personally find for a complete and fair evaluation the context and the purpose of the work must be taken into the equation somewhere and it shouldn't just be discussed as something that wasn't created.)

A lot of these discussions are not about the fic themselves, but about the fandom and the people involved and their preferences. Quite useless for the author indeed, I agree. So it's for the same reason that people have endless discussions about shipping and whether this ship would be good or not, which I usually find pointless because it will be canon or not, and otherwise is simply a matter of personal preference, but sometimes people enjoy having endless discussions of such, I guess. Of course it could also be that it's a widespread characterization that they hate... I don't know the fandom so I can't understand the discussion at all.

[troisroyaumes]

Hmm...I guess you're right, fanfic should pretty much stand on its own. Thinking on it further, I think the reason why I still feel a fanfic writer ought to be allowed a say is because, well, a fanfic is written pretty much for a specific community; it isn't thrown to the world to see. Of course people read fanfic for series they don't know all the time, but the intended audience is still the fandom for the series. I guess you're right in that there's nothing intrinsic in fanfiction that would require authorial input in discussion, but the social context in which it's published does make discussion without the author seem bizarre.

Also, I suppose I really just need to see fanfiction being discussed on a level other than "I don't agree with your version of this character". I don't get the 'ship discussions either. -_- That's another example of debate for debate's sake that seems really pointless to me. Actually, I read the fanfic in question and liked it very much but had absolutely no idea what the original series was about, which probably skewed my impression of the discussion somewhat. If people actually managed to put out thoughtful comments on the experience of reading the fic itself, I think the enterprise would be more parallel to how litcrit works for published works.

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to have people discuss fanfic for series that they've never read. I think I'd find that more interesting. ^_^

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Hmm, but a lot of things are written for specific communities, and yet people can read them outside of context. The intended audience is the fandom for the series, but I still don't see how it follows that the input of the author is more necessary or needed than otherwise. I mean, I think the input of the author shouldn't be disregarded, but at the same time I also think that whether the work can stand on its own separate the canon is separate from the question of whether it can stand on its own outside of the author.

I don't agree with your version of the chara is pretty much topic drift unless contextualized well. But many people simply want to really discuss the character and what they think about the character. I don't consider it debate for debate's sake, as such. On the other hand, I can't say a lot of lit crit doesn't do things that move outside of the formal concerns and the experience of reading: what about evaluation according to genre and political readings? (I am ambivalent about political readings, BTW)

[troisroyaumes]

Hmm, yes, I think I do have to concede the point that there is nothing inherent that requires authorial input to be necessary in critical discussion of fanfiction. Still, I think that in terms of the social conventions of sharing fanfiction, it's maybe more fair to have the author's perspective involved? I mean, professional writers may write for a specific audience, but they still know that their works can and will be judged by a more general scale. While fanfiction seems to be entirely judged in its relation to canon (well, other than writing technique I mean), so it's fairer to allow the author the opportunity to argue back. Er.

I suppose I've never been so invested in a character, or even a particular view of a character, that I could debate endlessly with people who don't agree with me and enjoy it. ^_^;; But I guess if you are that sort of person, it's worth it. As for genre and political readings...how would that map to fanfiction litcrit? I mean, not that I wouldn't be interested in seeing it...but other than gender roles, I can't really see how a political lens would work for fanfiction. (Although the thought is tempting. Class conflict and resolution in Cassie Claire's "Draco Dormiens"?! Alas, I don't think I'll ever take fanfic that seriously.)

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Mm, I'm not really sure. If you write a novel for a romance novel audience, and you end it unhappily, it's not going to be judged on the general scale of "well, the dialogue was good and so was the plot." Reactions are going to be more like "I can't believe you had the nerve to have the serial killer feast on everyone's intestines at the end!!" I don't really agree, though, that fanfic is entirely judged on the relationship to canon.

Mmm, I can discuss characters, but I get bored after awhile and wander off. That's why I so do not understand people who can remain in one fandom forever.

I meant more the gender role style of criticism, since the rest are hard to map to fanfic.

p.s.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I agree, though, with your larger point that fanfic is subjected to more criticism in a way than original works, because while few have the guts, or nerve if you will, to say that you got your own characters wrong, people are not shy about calling OOC in fanfic. Also, people are assumed to be writing for an audience with fanonical desires and when they don't fulfill them people will say the story 'didn't work for them,' which is a fairly vague statement. They get invested into one interetation of the characters because they're fans, and then cue flamewar.

Re: p.s.

[troisroyaumes]

Haha, yes, that's a pretty good sum-up of what I meant. Although once again, HP proves the exception what with certain rabid 'shippers insisting that J.K. Rowling "betrayed" her characters. >_>

[serendip.livejournal.com]

Dude, what is up with all of this conversation about the crit and the authorial intent? It's like the dead horse that's getting beaten beyond fashion. XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD

[troisroyaumes]

Haha, it's because we all can't resist the urge to wank, particularly when it comes to fandom and writing. XD

[issen4.livejournal.com]

I also think that litcrit for fanfiction isn't at all analogous to litcrit for actual published works because the substance of the debate is different

I think it should be. The substance of the debate, you mentioned, tends to be focused on characterization, canon details, etc, but fiction writing is still fiction writing, and must be judged on the same standards whatever its legal status or derivation.

To argue that playing with another creator’s characters and situations negates the need for judgment about a fic-author’s characterization is to deny that you have created something in the first place, we’re just having fun, har har. No. Fanfic can be a careless, easy way to have fun, or a deadly serious pursuit driven by love of the show, but there must be an authorial intent somewhere. Otherwise, we wouldn’t bother with writing fic—we would just watch reruns over and over again.

Hm, I do have pretty strong opinions on all of this after all.

[troisroyaumes]

True but I haven't really seen people debate about fanfiction as pure fiction, only in terms of its relationship to canon, unless they were giving feedback directly to the author. Of course, that by no means implies that such debate doesn't exist. If a fic discussion community managed to discuss fanfic, with or without author's input, on a level that didn't revolve around their opinions of the source material and the fidelity of the author's fic to canon, then I would find the debate worthwhile.

Also, I don't think that any need for debate is negated at all. I just felt that if the debate was predominantly going to be about fundamentally different and perhaps irreconcilable perspectives on characters, then one ought to allow the writer to join in on the discussion instead of insisting that it be a reader's only forum...it would feel more productive, in any case. ^_^;; Anyway, I agree with you that one should allow discussion on anything and everything; I just don't always understand why people spend so much time doing so when the discussion itself seems to be going nowhere.

[issen4.livejournal.com]

, on a level that didn't revolve around their opinions of the source material and the fidelity of the author's fic to canon

Particularly if we go by the rants on fanficrants and other communities like that. Yes, a lot of the time, what passes for litcrit is simply discussions (or disagreements) about canon and technical problems like spelling and grammar. I think those aren’t actually litcrit (just wank ^^), because I tend to have a rather academic view of litcrit, which is to talk about stuff like themes, development of plot and character, atmosphere, and other such nebulous stuff. And even the posts on fanficrants sometimes touch on these, though I find that such posts aren’t very effective because they are not directed at any one fic, but at all fics (in a particular fandom or not). There’re two main obstacles, I think, to a fic discussion community of the type you describe.

One: inevitably, there will be large numbers of people who think that litcrit means criticism, or “what I hated about this fic”, and you’d get the type of unhappiness that Pru refers to (not that she is against litcrit per se, I think). Two, worries about mis-characterizations and deviation from canon are in themselves part of litcrit, but there’s a big difference between discussing, for example, why I have characterized Draco Malfoy as a spoilt, whiny brat while another person writes him as a racist, murderous Death Eater (because these look at different aspects and interpretations), AND certain writers who simply want Draco to fall in love with their Mary Sues (which don’t seem to have anything to do with book Draco at all).

But there are communities and mailing lists out there that discuss fics weightier terms—I don’t disagree with cuttingboard in this aspect. I’ve read the post that talked about Pru’s fic, and frankly I didn’t feel that there was anything horribly injurious about the way it was discussed. Sure, I disagree with some of the views, some readings seemed to be off base, and some comments seemed to be personally directed rather than neutral. But I put the last down to the usual internet-lj wank that exists everywhere. I can see that if you’re the author, having your fic taken apart and analysed might not be pleasant—though this is what the anti-marysue communities do to other people’s fics—yet you still don’t have the right to stop other people. Again, I point to the anti-marysue communities.

On a more pleasant note, though, I find that crack_van usually provides very good recs, in that most of the times, they attempt to talk about the fic in terms of writing—the themes, the characterization and the writer’s general competency. So litcit doesn’t have to be painful!

Wow, I think this is the longest comment I've put on lj.

[issen4.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that should be thecuttingboard