Constructive criticism

[tarigwaemir]

Lowell House, on the Feast of St. John Neumann

Some recent posts on concrit lately have gotten me thinking about my own attitude towards it.

My reaction to concrit depends on who it comes from, how it's given, and what it's for. I'm a lot less touchy, for example, about receiving criticism for fiction than for academic writing. (Which makes you wonder how I ever survived high school and college. I'm rather unbearably arrogant about my academic writing, and I admit it's not really justified since I do have several obvious weaknesses. But I always go into a sort of mental agony if I get criticized on a paper I submit for school.) I don't have that much confidence about fanfiction (and even less about original fiction) because half the time I don't know what I'm trying to do. There are some fics that I'm more uncertain about than others, and I usually mention that concrit is welcome for these. As a general rule, if I write that I want concrit when I post a fic, it's not meant to be disingenuous but rather that I'm unable to either pinpoint what dissatisfies me about the fic or figure out how to fix it. (Of course, that doesn't mean that you should refrain from leaving concrit if I don't specifically solicit it.) Yes, I am lazy and would like other people to do my dirty work. ^_^ But to be more serious about it, I often do have a really hard time figuring out what doesn't work and why it doesn't work. I often say I have a very mechanical approach to writing: I think about syllable number and sentence length and paragraph breaks, not about storytelling. One would think that being a voracious reader should preclude having this problem, but as people have said, it's easier if you don't have the writer's perspective in the way.

As aishuu mentioned, I react best to concrit if it comes from someone I respect or know very well, although that doesn't necessarily mean the best writers per se. For example, my friend tryogeru is my favorite person to rely on for beta'ing although as far as I know she has never posted a complete fanfic herself. A major part of that has to do with how she gives concrit: she not only points out the flaw but how that flaw affects her reading of the story, and she's willing to deal with my (sometimes defensive) questions in response. I mean, I think an author has the right to question the concrit they receive, and sometimes the criticism is valid but the suggested solution isn't the right answer. For example, tryogeru might tell me to change a certain line of dialogue, but upon subsequent discussion, I discover that in fact the real problem has to do with an inconsistency of characterization throughout the fic. Anyway, concrit can be immensely useful if the feedbacker explains the reason for their criticism. (That of course doesn't apply to correcting grammar mistakes or typos, but I don't really consider that criticism.)

Vague concrit drives me up the wall though--"I didn't get that," or "I think this fic should be longer"--which is something that I should learn to be better about because just because it's vague doesn't mean it's invalid. (As an exception to the "people I know very well" rule, I never, ever take concrit well from paradiseraph because all her comments sound like that. -_- Still, I keep asking her to edit my writing too, so I suppose I'm not a hopeless case of writer's ego?) Also, concrit about a known weakness is usually easier to accept than concrit about something that I did deliberately (e.g. a line of dialogue I rewrote multiple times).

Anyway, I suppose my main point--if there was one--in the above meandering rambling, is that I don't always like concrit but I know I need it. Which is what everyone else said, but hey, I don't claim to be original either. ^_^

And now we're going to dinner, so I should probably just post.

Yours &c.

Comments

[darcenciel.livejournal.com]

On "concrit" on my writing- I don't like it. But I need it.

As you mentioned, the type that bothers me are the one-liners: "this fic rocks!" "this fic sucks!" "this fic made no sense!" That's not constructive, that's just your damn opinion.

I have a pretty thin skin when it comes to my own writing, but at the same time I realize that criticism helps me improve. So usually after I get a comment I'll be annoyed about it for an hour or two, then after I calm down, I either A. realize that it's valid or B. it's dumb. The dumb ones I usually don't reply to. The valid ones, I actually do.

I respect your opinion a lot as a writer, so please, if you have something to say about my work and how it can be improved, please comment. I'll appreciate it ^_^

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

There's an old mantra that goes: When a reader tells you your story is broken, they're usually right. When a reader tells you what's broken, they're usually wrong.

As a rule, I generally don't crit any of the fanfiction posted on my flist. I will leave a comment if I read it and liked it (I tend not to read fics for fandoms with which I am not familiar) but it's generally positive, unless I'm pointing out typos or some such. This is not to say I don't help if it's asked -- a friend hit a rough spot and didn't know how to proceed so I gave her some suggestions about what might have been the issue.

Most of the time I avoid it though, because I work on the assumption that most people don't want crits if they're at the stage of posting fic. Maybe it's not the best assumption to make, but there it is.

Even in my writing circles, that aim for publication, I've run into trouble with being honest. One of my friends thanked me for a review I'd given her novel and then turned around and told all our mutual friends I'd hated it, which was most certainly not the case. But she asked for my opinion and I gave it to her. This particular friend is used to being told that she's awesome and she wasn't ready to hear the fact that while, yes, her writing itself was excellent, the actual story itself needed work.

Re: That bit about mechanics versus storytelling? I think you're more able to get away with pretty writing and no content in short stories. Novels are a little trickier because reader will forgive clumsy writing if the story's awesome but they won't forgive a bad story even if the prosework is super duper keen. And I think that might be where the notion of "reader's books" versus "writer's books" comes in.

[sub-divided.livejournal.com]

I feel that my writing has a lot of really obvious weaknesses -- also I'm really bad at things like basic editing -- so I almost always take crit to heart, because I always do need it, and 90% of the time the commenter is RIGHT about what I need. I usually consider the content of the comment before I consider the identity of the commenter, and if I agree with a suggestion and am not being lazy, I implement it to the best of my ability. I don't always say that I am open to concrit because this can feel like fishing for comments, but the truth is that I really always am.

But like I said, it's easy for me to be accepting of criticism when I have so much to work on. XD;

[angrybabble.livejournal.com]

I never ever ask for crit. Not because my work doesn't need it (oh, how it needs it) but because I'm... I dunno, oversensitive? XD More than that, I don't need someone to tell me it sucks. I know it sucks. Tell me why! Tell me how to fix it! Argh! What you said is very true; it's incredibly helpful to have the person tell you her reactions and why she had them, because as an author you then know what you did that caused the problem (to a certain extent).

Rather than crit, my friends talk to me on IRC or AIM or something and say, "that scene with blah seemed out of character because blah, do you really think he'd do that?" and then I have to explain, and in the process I realize that I must have sort of left that bit out when I was writing... or maybe I realize I'm wrong and the line needs changing... or whatever. The discussion is really helpful for me though; it tells me the directions I should go and the directions I went that were good or bad. I don't think someone leaving a comment could be as good as discussion. Although they're welcome to do so, but I just never actively solicit.

In other news, there's that yaoi challenge comm thing and their small fandoms challenge... I kind of want to sign up because Hurrah Jojo is on it (and some other stuff!) but I'm confused by the logistics and afraid I wouldn't be able to produce X on command. X_x I don't want to let down someone hoping for a good story in her fandom! This is why I don't ever sign up for yuletide. XD Do you think I should try anyhow, or should I do something like instigate a trade among people I know instead (like, fic for art, or fic for fic, or something)?

[troisroyaumes]

More than that, I don't need someone to tell me it sucks. I know it sucks. Tell me why! Tell me how to fix it!

Haha, yes, this is exactly how I feel too. XD

Ooh, yes, I saw Sabina mention the challenge...I don't see why you shouldn't try? Besides, for a small fandom like Jojo, I'll bet the person you write for will end up being someone you know...or at least someone who knows someone you know. ^_^ Although the trade idea sounds good too! (I think I might even participate if you organized something! XD;;;)

[angrybabble.livejournal.com]

sabina and I both had reservations towards entering that challenge... so we ended up organizing our own (http://community.livejournal.com/hail2jojo/6345.html) afterall. XD PLEASE PARTICIPATE!! She wanted to get about 10 people and you know how hard that is in this fandom! XD Um spread the news around too and harass people into agreeing to play? It's just a drabble or sketch... it's supposed to be easy and fun!! XD Plzzzzzzzzzz I am sure your fic is A++++++++! :D

Oh, and I guess it didn't occur to her to say, but I guess if you sign up, say how much you've read so nobody asks you for a part 5 drabble featuring zombieXrisotto or something. XD Although now that I think about it that would be totally hot. >_____> *goes off to draw on the oekaki*

[troisroyaumes]

Hee, I just signed up after starting to read part 3 today. ^_^

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

More than that, I don't need someone to tell me it sucks. I know it sucks. Tell me why! Tell me how to fix it!

*tilts head*

I bolded the relevent parts for emphasis but that's what constructive criticism is, isn't it? Is my definition different from everyone else's? D:

Maybe this is where those random workshopping experiences have colored my view on the world. o.<

(Although it's usually less telling the writer how to fix it and more giving them various suggestions for improvement.)

[angrybabble.livejournal.com]

hmm, I guess when I think of that kind of crit I think of someone saying something like "I didn't think there was enough justification for [scene]" or "it seemed OOC for [character] to do [whatever]." Which is okay, I guess... but it doesn't really help me because I'm usually aware that there was something wrong. It's sort of like art crit. You can tell me all day that my anatomy is bad or that the perspective is funky, but I probably already know... it's not like I didn't TRY to fix it before! XD; What I need is someone to sit down and talk to me while I do it, or put a hand over mine and show my hand what it's supposed to do... I guess I think of fic sort of like that? A discussion will help me more than commentary or plain suggestions... if you see what I mean :/ It's not that comments as crit aren't helpful or don't sometimes point out stuff I didn't notice, but... they're nowhere near AS helpful. XD; Mostly from comments I think, "oh... nobody got [whatever] so I should try to make it clearer."

Speaking of fic, you should come play our jojo game and cut your ficcing eyeteeth. XD *harasses everyone shamelessly*

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

True, it's most helpful when suggestions are given but in my experience, lots of people aren't as self-aware as you and really don't see what's wrong with their own work. Maybe this is one of the difference between original and fic, I don't know, but it's true.

Speaking of fic, you should come play our jojo game and cut your ficcing eyeteeth.

*backs away wide-eyed* Uh... Um. I actually have cut my ficcing eyeteeth. It was just years ago when I was in college. *runs*

[angrybabble.livejournal.com]

haha, well, I don't think i'm all that self-aware, but... XD; I dunno, when you read back over a story a few weeks later, the errors just jump out, right? For example, in my Giogio and Mista story, I don't care for my characterization of Giogio, but I can't seem to do it right. No matter how much I rewrite his dialogue, I just can't really picture him saying it. Not the content so much as the way he talks. It's that kind of thing, where I look at, say, Sabina's fic and wonder why her Giogio sounds so... well, so much more like I think he should? XD;;

COME ON, JOIN US!! Think of it as a writing exercise! It's short! It's intended to be fun and fairly easy! YOU WANT TO DO IT, ADMIT IT!!! XD

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

WOMAN, I HAVE ONLY READ PARTS 1&2! I have Parts 3-4 and bits of Parts 5&6 from Kismet, but I haven't gotten to them yet. It doesn't leave me many options to write about!! (There's no way I'd be able to pull off Joseph's...er...brilliant dumbassery.)

[angrybabble.livejournal.com]

You're not alone! Other people have only read parts 1-3, 1-2, etc! Just say what you've read and we'll all request JonaDio or cutesy Danny fic or THE DEEP AND MEANINGFUL TALE OF LISALISA AND GEORGE or "what does Caesar get up to in the bath? Does he practice hamon with the soap bubbles?" etc. XD We're all mad for JonaDio right now anyhow, conveniently enough. XD

Poor tari, I'm always filling up her comments with my random conversations. >_>;

[troisroyaumes]

I don't mind the random conversations at all, so feel free to comment away! ^_^ And magicnoire, I've only read parts 1-2 too, so I'm equally handicapped.

"what does Caesar get up to in the bath? Does he practice hamon with the soap bubbles?"

...I reaaaaaaally want to see fanart of this now! XDXDXD

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

Oh and yes, of course the errors jump out if you do that. Or they should, anyway. But that doesn't mean the writer will always see it. ;)

[equivalent-t.livejournal.com]

I suppose that in my case it depends on the concrit in question. I guess my writing is more like idea-bouncing, in that I have a rough idea where it's gone wrong and what's too gimmicky, but it's beyond me how to fix the unnaturalness of things. Posting fic is, besides the obligatory storytelling stuff, the way I try to guage what works and what doesn't, and if the the basic idea is decent and/or well-carried enough? It's sort of like cheating, but then I never claim to be anything but cheap. The fic-puncturing kind of crit...I don't claim it's a favourite, that'd be dishonest, but with the mentality sported by the sane part of the intarwebz being "better be polite than sorry", if the reviewer feels the need to puncture, then it probably needs puncturing. I don't like it, but I'd like to hear it in any case. If that makes sense?

If there's any kind of review I hate with great passion, it's the one-liner "This sucks" and "This rocks". OKAY, HOW?

(I don't really believe all ficcers is out for praise, though. Praise is really nice, and I think we'd all be lying if we say we don't fish for it at some point or another. But I also don't think it's too naive of me to believe a true desire to here something else also exists somewhere in this world)