An update

[tarigwaemir]

Stanley Hall on the Feast of St. Gildas the Wise

Meme from magicnoire: The first five people to respond to this post will get something made by me!

My choice. For you.

This offer does have some restrictions and limitations:

• I make no guarantees that you will like what I make!
  
• What I create will be with you in mind.
  
• It'll be done sometime this year (2009).
  
• You have no clue what it's going to be. It may be something written, some physical thing made, could be anything at all, but I will make it myself. It's entirely my choice what it is. No quibbles, no refunds.
  
• I reserve the right to do something extremely strange.

The catch?

Oh, the catch is that you put this in your journal as well. If you don't, you don't get anything.

In other news, I decided to stop following the recent "debate" on racism and cultural appropriation. I put debate in quotation marks because it started off being one, but now I feel like people who were listening aren't listening anymore, and that's not a debate by any means. I made my first reaction post on my Tumblr, but I felt the need to say something here.

I don't normally follow discussions of race on LiveJournal, but I started following this one because I found it educational. Let me be honest, I normally try to close my eyes to racism, whether it be targeted against my ethnic group or others. I am not proud of this behavior, which is symptomatic of my larger issues with open confrontation. I haven't personally experienced a lot of direct prejudice, other than the occasional xenophobic comment that is easy to shrug off, but I am extremely aware of being a member of a minority group in the U.S. and all that it entails. I realized recently though that I didn't know how to describe or explain that minority experience to someone who doesn't believe that it exists, and reading other people's posts and comments describing their experiences in an effort to communicate helped immensely. So I kept reading, even when the discussion turned ugly, and I kept getting horrified again and again, until I hit a point yesterday where I realized that it had reached a point I couldn't handle anymore.

I was reading the comments to a post yesterday and unfortunately caught the sight of an extremely racist comment (against my particular background to boot); the original poster deleted it within a minute, but I was unlucky to have stumbled across her post at the wrong time. The commenter was obviously a troll, and even though I knew that, even though the comment wasn't even directed at me but at the original poster, I had a hard time calming down after I saw it. Then I made the mistake of reading through the comments in tnh's latest post, and the realization that even now, there's a complete failure to communicate (no matter what the means: thoughtful, well-written essays or expressions through poetry and fiction or genuine anger or patient explanations or impassioned argumentation, none of it is getting through), I realized that I should stop reading because it's not helping anymore now. And I feel terrible for saying that because I didn't have the courage to talk or engage with anyone; I just lurked and read but I still felt too exhausted. Perhaps it's because I'm new to these debates. I don't know.

It's gotten to the point where I wonder if I can honestly read some of the writers who said problematic things anymore. I have always been able to separate art from the artist before, and it's troubling to realize that I've gotten triggered enough that I don't know if I can still do that for some of the participants.

Argh, I already am starting to second-guess the wisdom of having written the above. Maybe I'll delete it later.

Anyway, if you skip the above, what I really wanted to say was:

If I ever say anything unintentionally offensive out of unconscious privilege (race, class, biological or social gender, sexual orientation, etc.), please let me know. I promise to bite my tongue and keep any defensive comments to myself until I've understood why what I said could be offensive to another person. My friends are always free to call me out on my mistakes.

In other news, ficcraft is wrapping up its first round soon, and there have been a total of zero posts. At the very least, it would be nice to get some discussion on the challenge; aishuu made a very good comment, but she's been the only one. Fic of any length, including drabbles, are welcome. Heck, post your old fic, if need be. I know it's not a large forum but it would be nice if the community didn't die in its first month...

Yours &c.

Comments

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Me!

...Yeah, that whole debate depressed me because these things are supposed to help, but this one will be leaving the community worse off not better. There was a point maybe a third of the way through where everyone should've just turned their computers off, chilled out and thought hard about what was said, but of course that didn't happen.

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, I agree. It's easier to call a timeout in real life though. I think at the very least it would have helped if they vented in private under friends-lock, but I suppose you only learn to do that after being exposed to fandom_wank on a regular basis.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

It's gotten to the point where I wonder if I can honestly read some of the writers who said problematic things anymore.

This. I've stopped reading one author because of things he's said and written once, but this time around not only do I want to stop reading more authors, I want to stop reading books put out by an entire publisher.

Normally I wade into these sorts of discussions because I think they're important and they interest me but I was just so tired this time around. And on top of that, I felt some of the comments were even more hurtful and offensive than usual. And it saddens me that now there are people who don't even want to go to their favorite cons because they feel like the SFF fandom is actively hostile to them. Even I, who flits around the periphery, feels unwelcome and uncomfortable. I can't imagine what it's like for PoC for whom this is their main, active fandom.

Oh! And yes, I'm playing too. :)

[troisroyaumes]

I think maybe eventually, I'll be able to go the way of only buying used books or borrowing from the library, but I can't do even that right now. >_<;;

I respect you for wading into discussions like these, and I understand why you're feeling tired. (I'm just amazed that you weren't tired out by previous iterations already!) I also feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, even though I don't think I even qualify as flitting around the periphery. The SF/F writers of color who are already involved in the community definitely have my sympathies, not to mention those who are hoping to get published. (I hope it's still an "are hoping" for them rather than a "were hoping"...)

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

Oh, I get tired, believe me. But I was mentally weary already before the imbroglio started, so the ensuing hostility essentially shut me down.

There was one writer who was > < this close to giving up trying to get published and just posting her fantasy novel on her LJ but she got talked off the ledge. The publisher in question may be the largest SFF one around but it's not the only one around.

[troisroyaumes]

That's really terrible. ;_; I don't know if I know her at all, but she has my sympathies, and I already feel willing to buy her novel without knowing at all what it's about, out of the sheer principle of the thing.

[solidark.livejournal.com]

I, too, followed the debates without participating (actually, I was tempted to just lurk here, too). I know where everyone is coming from but I also think that this isn't a new phenomenon. Fantasy has been like this ever since the 1930s and has never moved on from its pseudo-Celtic/Germanic/Euro-centric medieval roots and basically that's why I mainly read SF and manga. Actually, mainstream media is full of racism against blacks, Asians, Latinos and no one cares and I suppose if I were white and blond I wouldn't have noticed until now either. But I also have to say that the institutionalized racism by the government which many people complain about is a very American thing. Being asked what race you are and having to tick one of the boxes on a form wouldn't be allowed in Europe, not on an immigration paper and particularly not in a survey regarding manga *shakes head*.

Um... sorry. I didn't want to write so much about this. Guess I should have participated after all ^^;;

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, I agree that it's hard to pick up on systemic racism in the media and society if you're white, particularly if you don't live in a very diverse neighborhood. I mean, I understand it's difficult to recognize privilege, and I normally don't bother trying.

I think you're right that racism at the governmental level is probably less of a problem in other countries, like Europe. Though...is it fair to say that European nations are entirely free of it? Aren't there controversies over anti-immigration laws, which implicitly involve race? At least that was the impression I got; please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do occasionally come across non-Eurocentric fantasies but they often go to the opposite extreme and exoticize foreign cultures in a stereotypical fashion. -_- I don't exactly prefer SF to fantasy, but I do see why you would choose to read more SF. I also find it refreshing to read manga for the same reason.

Oh, are you also signing up for the meme by the way? ^_^

[jaebi-lit.livejournal.com]

racism at the governmental level

Erm, do you remember Sarkozy's comment about "cleansing" the predominantly Muslim banlieue with a hose? The calls to ban headscarves and hijab? Racism is just as much a problem in Europe as it is here. The discussions and specific instances are just different--Germany has problems integrating its Turkish minority, France has problems with nationality and ethnicity with regard to its Algerian-descended population, and there are bars in Dublin that won't serve Poles.

Differentiating between governmental racism and societal racism is difficult, IMO, because aside from immigration law, laws are rarely overtly racist. It's how they're implemented that ends up being racist, which is both a societal and an individual problem. E.g. the death penalty here is arguably color-blind in theory, but due to a culture that stereotypes black men as violent and privileges whiteness, a high proportion of people sentenced to death are black men, who tend to be sentenced more harshly than white men due to cultural racism that affects the jurors' decisions.

I just lurked and read but I still felt too exhausted. Perhaps it's because I'm new to these debates. I don't know.

Reading can be helpful. If it helps you think about things and how to put them into words, that's valuable, and it sounds like it was full of people who were commenting without thinking or listening to each other as it was!

It's gotten to the point where I wonder if I can honestly read some of the writers who said problematic things anymore. I have always been able to separate art from the artist before, and it's troubling to realize that I've gotten triggered enough that I don't know if I can still do that for some of the participants.

I didn't follow the debate b/c it didn't spill directly onto my flist (and I thought it was in some fandom I wasn't active in...although I'm not active in any right now, really). Did it involve pro-fic authors? I tend not to separate art from the artist if they're still alive, because for me, the art comes from an authorial context--e.g. finding out Orson Scott Card was a raging homophobe killed my enjoyment of Ender's Game :( There's also the monetary aspect, where I don't want to give money to someone who is racist, sexist, etc. (e.g. Don Sebastiani funds the parental notification initiatives here...so I don't buy his wine. It's also crap wine :P).

The flip side of it is that you can make an effort to support artists who aren't jerks! I found out a while ago that Tamora Pierce is an awesomely feminist and anti-homophobic person, which made me happy about obsessively reading her her Alanna books when I was little, and I'm probably going to get her books the next time Sib and I are sent on Christmas present-buying missions for the family friends' kids.

P.S. Hang out sometime?

P.P.S. Have you seen the 09-10 opera season? What do you think?

[troisroyaumes]

Racism is just as much a problem in Europe as it is here.

Oh, I agree completely. I think the U.S. has more opportunity to show overt racism in its laws, etc. because it has a larger variety of racial minorities to deal with, but by no means do I think Europe is free of racism--after all, who did most of the colonizing in the first place?!--and I find it annoying when (usually white) Europeans try to derail the argument by making that point. That being said, I do think that the situations and issues are different there, although the underlying problem is the same.

Yes, the debate involved the SF/F writing community. You can get a good summary of it here, here and here.

I like Tamora Pierce, though apparently she hasn't always been all that sensitive to racism either. She gets pretty defensive to criticism about problematic aspects in her work when she comments here, although she does in the end come off as a good person who's in the process of learning, which I can't say the same of most of the writers involved in this particular imbroglio.

ETA: Sure! When are you free? Also, the 09-10 season looks interesting--we ended up buying a full subscription this time--though it doesn't induce starry eyes like this last season did. I am looking forward to Deborah Voight though! And I've always wanted to hear Gounod's Faust.

[solidark.livejournal.com]

As the commenter below said, there are problems in Europe, I'm not denying that. It's just that the lines are far more subtle because they are along religion and language, not ethnicity per se. If you're muslim, you've got a problem and if you don't speak the language of the country in question, you're screwed, it's that easy. It has little to do with skin colour or job situation. My father has dark skin and black hair and does indeed stand out among his German colleagues but he never had a problem because he has learnt passable German and he is Catholic. I never had any real problems - people look at my name, ask me how you pronounce it, ask where it's from, I tell them Mexico and that's it. The only problems I ever got because of my 'ethnic background' I got in the US.

I remember that I once had a lenghty discussion with a LJ-friend in which we talked about exactly this topic, the Eurocentrism, so to speak, in fantasy literature and I said that I think that Marion Zimmer Bradley is the worst racist of them all - she even got as far as to invent a planet, where, due to the ethnic composition of the original settlers, no character ever has brown eyes and dark skin. IMO Darkover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkover) is Hitler's dream come true! But it seems like no one ever noticed. It's just one of many examples that put me off mainstream fantasy (technically the books are SF but they rather read like fantasy). I never had that kind of problem with a manga.

I was really tempted to sign up for the meme but if I request something I'd have to put it into my own LJ and if even three people request a wallpaper or a Winamp skin I'm in trouble because I've too much homework to do anything, particularly now that I have to make up for the time I lost due to that horrible cold earlier this week... :(

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, it does seem like the situation is a bit different in Europe and that it's hard to separate out what's precisely xenophobia and what's precisely racism and what's an overlap between the two.

I haven't read the Darkover books, and now you make me relieved that I haven't. O_O

Ah, I see, just wanted to make sure. ^_^ Technically, you get to choose what you make for the person though, so you don't have to make wallpapers and Winamp skins for everyone (though I know what you mean about how much effort it takes). ^_^

[angelyrique.livejournal.com]

Woohoo! Posted wirelessly! ThoughI must admit I didn't read your full post... They need a scrollbar or something on this... Or maybe I haven't fully learned all the tricks of it yet... I did read the first part though. The les dense part, haha.

[troisroyaumes]

Congrats! Hey, are you actually commenting for the meme or not? Do you really want me to make you something? O_O

[sleepingfingers.livejournal.com]

I'd love to play! :)

My reactions to the entire debate were akin to yours. I started following it when it first erupted, and read on because there were interesting and provoking thoughts buried within, but had to stop after a while because lurking and reading alone drained so much out of me. Somewhere in the middle, it stopped being a discussion and became open attacks and many people should've stopped and sat back and thought things through rather than forging on without really listening to the other side.

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, I also think that a lot of people who are commenting/posting now aren't really fully aware of the whole story, what with posts being locked and journals being deleted and there being incomplete evidence, not to mention, long comment threads which not even I finished reading. >_>

So much fail. I think I need to take a break and sit back and think myself.

[bravecows.livejournal.com]

It's too late to play, isn't it? :( I've been seeing the meme go around and wanted to catch it so I could crochet things for people. :)

[bravecows.livejournal.com]

also re: race imbroglio -- I know what you mean. The biggest part of why I follow these discussion is 'cos they help me articulate things I've only felt before but not known how to explain (and most of the time I'm worried that I'm wrong to feel that way, am I imagining it all, etc. etc.). I'm still following the discussion 'cos I preserve sanity by mocking in flocked posts, but it's definitely having a bad effect on my mood all the same. :/

[troisroyaumes]

::hugs:: Well, for what it's worth, reading your posts was helpful for me and also helped me laugh about it; I just reached a point yesterday where I realized I was too saddened to even vent my frustration by mocking in private anymore. I'll keep reading friends list posts on the topic, of course, but I think I'll stop checking for new link round-ups on rydra_wong because watching the fail never end is getting wearying. >_<;;

[troisroyaumes]

Well, I'm not sure if all of the commenters above are commenting for the meme or not, and in any case, I am always willing to bend the rules and include an extra person. ^_^ Feel free to play!

[uminohikari.livejournal.com]

I have always had trouble separating the artist from the art. :x In this case, I don't think I've read anything by any of the participants before, but I'm much more likely to enjoy something by someone I admire, and I have trouble reading things by people I dislike.

[troisroyaumes]

I think I have always had major disagreements with most of the writers I've read, but they were usually dead or at the very least I didn't encounter their personal thoughts on the Internet before. That's one of the disadvantages of blogging, I suppose. I'm glad that I still have the option to disengage though; imagine how much worse it would be if you were trying to get published in this genre! >_

[love_archived]

*hugs you* I can only read the same point stated over and over (and over) again so many times before I stop reading, and I reached that point a LONG TIME AGO. dagbrown got very tired of reading that meta too. Too many people are weighing in with too many similar points, and no one was listening to others. (Though of course, I made note of the behaviour. There is writing fodder in everything one sees and all that.)

ETA: _Not_ playing. ^_^

[troisroyaumes]

Heh, judging by your reply to my comment in your journal, I think we're probably tired of different things and have different perspectives on this issue. And well, okay, I can only put it this way: I have always felt very unsafe when talking about racism to white people to the point where I usually avoid the subject, and initially, this discussion was helping me get over that fear, but at this moment, I feel like I'm right back where I started because if I don't just smile and nod, if I ever do speak out about feeling hurt or offended, I'm going to be told to shut up because I'm just being oversensitive. If I were a person who could better handle that accusation, perhaps I wouldn't feel this way, but unfortunately, I'm not at that point yet.

[livrelibre.livejournal.com]

Hi, stranger here, but I am also a super nonconfrontational person but as a PoC haven't been able to ignore this one. Even just reading and responding a little has been a step outside my usual comfort zone but I'm glad I mentioned it and I'm glad to see posts by other folks like this. Strategic disengagement when you need it is not a bad idea, but I'm heartened by all the folks I've found during this so thanks for posting!

[troisroyaumes]

Hi, no worries, strangers are always welcome to comment. ^_^ I wrote this about a month ago after reading through the comments of tnh's posts, which were extremely disheartening and also kind of frightening, and at the time felt that I needed to disengage. But I've found the recent developments hard to ignore as well and have gotten sucked back into reading all the links...^_^;; I agree, the upside is that I've read a lot of thoughtful posts by people of color that have enabled me to try talking about racism in my offline life.